Why Fighting Games Take the Most Skill / SF4 and SSBB Thoughts

[MetalMusicMan]

I came across a blog entitled, Flawless Victory: Why Fighting Games Take the Most Skill, on WoW Riot and I found it to be a fun read.  Aside from it being the usual pointless internet endeavor to claim X is better than Y, it brings up some valid and interesting points, with a conclusion of:

Simply put, the most mediocre fighting game player has more skill than the best MMORPG player...

Mostly, the article details the stupidity of your average MMO / WoW player who thinks that they just ooze skill from every orifice.  Especially in today's WoW where "skill" essentially translates to whether or not you are a Deathknight, Paladin, or Hunter. 

The validity of the claim isn't limited to the present, though.  Even when WoW was good, your best WoW players are still retards by comparison to average people who play fighters.  And shooters too, for that matter--the pre-Source Counter Strike got somewhat close, but I don't think any other shooter has ever done that.  In my opinion, no other genre can really compete, though I have heard some good arguments in favor of your best RTS's like pro-level Star Craft. 

Why Fighting Games Take the Most Skill / SF4 and SSBB Thoughts

In addition, since I've had some time to play it now, here are my thoughts on Street Fighter 4.

While I don't think that SF4 beats out Super Smash Brothers Brawl, it is still a very, very good game.  I certainly feel that in SF4, the player has less options, if not simply because of the traditional health bar system, versus SSBB's directionally influenced "king of the hill-style" system.  But, despite the fact that SF4 is a very linear and traditional fighter, it's definitely very fun, very competitive, and very well made.

Overall, it feels great.  Like Street Fighter 2 with more options and better graphics.  The gameplay is well balanced, but it certainly favors offensive over defensive play.  While there are a lot of options to help you out in situations where you feel pressured, there are even more that help you keep the opponent under pressure.  This of course means that the game is more offensively oriented than SSBB, but what fighting game isn't?   

The aggressive play style also makes the game feel less tactical, but not by a large margin.  That's how Street Fighter is supposed to feel, anyway.

The biggest reason I will continue to play SF4 is not the gameplay, though, it's the online play.

In Smash Brawl, the online play is terrible due to the technical limitations effected by the design of the game.  This doesn't mean Nintendo is lazy; the problem is that in Smash, there are too many options.  Let's take jumping, for instance; you have a range of 1 to 100 degrees or so that you can "float" around after you jump, combined with short hops, full hops, double jumps, and recoveries of different distances, arcs, and speeds.  All of this means it is nearly impossible to program any sort of lag-reducing netcode, and without that, game's with just about anyone but your next door neighbor are laggy and neigh unplayable.  Personally, I don't mind though, as I enjoy traveling and going to SSBB tournaments.

With Street Fighter 4, the online play is--from a technical standpoint-- more like a first person shooter.  There is no directional influence.  When you jump, you always go the same distance.  You can jump up, forward, or back.  Your kicks have the same affect each time they hit the opponent, rather than sending the enemy farther and farther away at various percentages, as in SSBB.  This makes it very easy to netcode the game.

While SF4's lobby system is terrible and prone to disconnects (often booting me from games before they start), the actual matches are perfectly smooth about 90% of the time.  This level of online playability will keep me playing SF4 in my freetime for quite a while.

In the end, SF4 is a great game and certainly the best tradional fighter on the market today.  It won't take away Brawl's #1 spot in my heart, but either way, whether it's SF4 or SSBB, you can't disagree that when it comes to skill, there is nothing better than a fighting game.

[Syphien]

This was a great find.  It seems we've been having these conversations quite a bit lately and it always comes to this conclusion.  It's nice to see others are thinking along those lines.

WoW doesn't take much skill and I'm pretty sure most smart people have realized this by now.  However, between First Person Shooters and Fighters is where people like to draw a nice little line.

Personally, I think Fighters take more skill and it's quite silly to compare them. FPS's while they take very quick reaction time don't have the mind game feel to them. That's not to say they don't have somewhat of a mind game.  It's just not to the extent of that of a fighting game.   Now, if you would have asked me this a few years ago I would have probably said FPS's.  However, playing a fighting game competitively for about a year now, you find out that there are some truly amazing people out there that can almost read your mind.  You have to completely change the way you're currently thinking and how you play the game.  Now that's true skill.

[The_Gamdol]

TBH I think there are definitely very skilled players in WoW, but the noticeable difference between a good WoW player and a mildly above average WoW player.  The is a larger difference for some classes (rogues, hunters), basically the classes with tons of options where using them in certain ways can cause drastic changes to the pace of a fight.

I would say RTS games have the potential for the highest skill-cap.  Truly amazing players can destroy players that are just above average with a much smaller force purely through their micro troop management at extremely high speeds.  Being able to do that across an entire map at the same time requires just an immense amount of skill and knowledge of the game to the highest level.

Right below them would be certain FPS games (again IMO).  I was watching the ESL European championship matches, and the top team (mTw) was just obliterating other "top" teams because they had every map down to a science and were able to work extremely well as a team, rotating across the map with every change the other team showed.  Members of their teams pulling off ridiculous 1v2 round winners against other top European players just amazed me.

On a very slight level below FPS are fighting games, though various fighting games can have very different skill caps.

While I would have to completely disagree with the "mediocre fighter > top WoW player,"  the higher skill cap in certain fighters just lets the game be played to much higher level in the end, and lets the top players truly define themselves.  While it can be seen in certain cases (watching the Neilyo v. Akrios duel movie definitely showed Neilyo playing at a much higher level than Akrios).  RNG also plays a factor (which is dumb), but the top players are usually able to overcome the dice rolling against them, and against mediocre players it's almost never an issue.

[spidey]

mmorpgs are so much about time put in. fighters are on a level playing field making skill what puts players on different levels.

you playing on ps3 or 360?

[oograx]

Dawn of war 2 is an amazing game simply because instead of it being about who has the best build order and the most units, it's almost purely about who has the best micro. I've played it where one of my basic units single-handedly smashed a large enemy advance simply because I micro'd the unit just right.

I had an amazing match today where i lost almost my entire army (this is a game in which preserving units is the best strategy, so losing more than one unit is a catastrophe and losing 4 or 5 is basically a guaranteed loss) very early on and through some clever play and exploitation of my enemy's army makeup i came back and won with literally seconds until I lost (the game has victory points, sort of battlefield 2 style).

Nothing is better than dropping an asteroid on one of my own cheap units that i used to tie up his two phenomenally expensive and tough units and wiping them all out.



Gee, i wish some of you guys had this game, it's really very good.

[Mahony]

I am in conflict with myself after reading this thread. 

I... I agree with Gamdol? 

While RPG's do have a lower skill cap than most games there is something that hasn't been mentioned yet.  RPG's and FPS's require a lot of teamwork and coordination.  It is something that is pretty non-existent in fighting / RTS games.  So naturally fighters and RTS's require you to out think your opponent where as RPG / FPS games require you to work as a team and to a lesser extent, out think / out maneuver.   

[MetalMusicMan]

Competitively, MMO's are a joke.  Shooters are mediocre at best.

Gamdol, I don't think I've ever seen the degree of skill in WoW that you claim Neilyo has-- even from him.  I mean, as someone who has done a huge amount of PvP in the game, I can honestly say that there is very little that defines me as a player any differently than every other moron out there.  Neilyo doesn't do anything any different or better than any other Rogue that isn't a complete retard.  He's just a dick with good gear and a sponsorship.

It's that reason that I have not played WoW competitively or passionately since BC came out / since my last PvP Video.  There is no point in competing because you aren't doing anything different than anyone else.  There is no revolution, as there was with Hemo when I first picked it up.  No reason to innovate, because there is nothing to do and nowhere to go that hasn't already been layed out by the Devs. 

The constant patches make sure that you can only ever do EXACTLY what the devs intended you to.  The fact that WoW has as much maintenence as it does is one of the biggest reasons it has been failing from a gameplay standpoint for almost 3 years now.

It's all very cut and dry.  You have few options, and your fate is in the hands of Random Number Generation and what the developers see as "balanced play".  This translates into very hodgepodge matches that have little to do with skill and more to do with luck and random events, even in today's WoW, this is true.

I personally think that they only reason anyone focuses on competative WoW play or the "skilled players" in the community at this point is because they don't want to admit that they have been wasting their time.  I mean, WoW is fun, but it's basically Mario Party now.



As Kevin said, the real strength in shooters is in Teams.  Even in teams, though, the genre still suffers the same handicaps.  They are just less prevalent when there are more things going on at once.  Just because FPS's have a fairly decent team play doesn't mean that they are even close to being in the same realm as fighters, though.

If you honestly think that FPS's take more skill than a fighting game, you are sorrily mistaken.  I will allow you the argument of RTS = Fighting, because that is valid on certain levels.  Shooters really take into account only two things- reaction time and knowledge of the map.  You don't need any knowledge of your opponent, because their style and strategy never really comes into play.  They either know the map, or they don't.  They can either shoot quickly, or they can't.  There is no variable.  No room for style, or mind games, and very little room for strategy compared to a fighter.

Don't talk to me about "accuracey" in a shooter, either.  Any moron can aim with a mouse, it's the easiest thing in the world.  What defines a good sniper is how quickly he can aim.  From there on out, it's all headshots.  Your high level play with shooters always ends up being Insta-Gib based because of this.

Why do you think serious CS matches are always dEagle / AWP?  Every other gun becomes unreliable at high level play, especially rapid fire ones.  Why?  Because shooters cap out with REACTION TIME.  If you have a better reaction time, your insta-gib weapon is always going to beat out anything else the enemy can throw at you.  Hence, the enemy must also insta-gib. 

FPS's are one dimensional, plain and simple.  Great games, very fun, I still love them, but competitively, they are handicapped.

[spidey]

In 1.5 counter strike I dominated with the AK. Had the 2-3 bullet spray down to a science. Head shots all over the place. Unless one of my team mates had hurt you and the first shot that hits you in the chest kills you. This skill level wasn't that hard to get to imo. Later in CS and newer shooters the spray pattern is much more random taking away that area of "skill"

SPORTS GAMES! FTW! lol. This may beat out fighters even though nobody else here plays them.

[The_Gamdol]

If people didn't do anything different from each other in WoW then you wouldn't have a 2600 version of one comp and the same exact setup/spec only being able to reach 2100.  Tourney realms completely negate the time-invested aspect of arenas and put everyone on the same level in terms of available gear.

Top players in WoW definitely show a diifference, being able to react to your opponents actions in just the right way with the right move to win the game in a 1 second window or smaller is definitely skill.

You say that FPS games don't require much in terms of skill, just fast reaction times and the ability to aim and fire extremely quick.  Those both seem like pretty skill-based things to me.  The finals I watched were pretty rediculous.  mTw, the winners, put 1 player on their team with an AWP, and the rest of the group all had automatics.

[darkarsenic]

i think that there are a few mindgames in shooters, such as using grenades effectively and communicating with teammates. RTS also takes alot of skill as well, since alot of things comes into play, stamina(i seriously can't play more than 2-3 games at a time), Actions per minute, knowing the map, adaption, taking advantage spots(i've been screwed over by choke points ALOT), scouting, expanding, and i'm sure there are tons more.
Fighting games have alot of skill involved too, knowledge of your matchups is one of the most important things besides execution, and adapting quickly to the situation, while being unpredictable and forcing your opponent to do exactly what you want to do. however in Street Fighter 4, i think playing defensively gives you a better edge than playing offensively unless you can mix up well or if your character is really safe(almost no frame disadvantage on block) because you can sit there all day blocking and teching grabs waiting for an opening.

[MetalMusicMan]

I'm not arguing that shooters aren't competitive, just that they are on a much lower scale and skill cap than fighters.  I have seen no evidence to the contrary in any of the posts in this thread or in any videos I have seen throughout my gaming history.

I love shooters; I played Mechwarrior 3 and 4 competitively for years and they are a strictly team based shooter.  I have played with people who could easily 10-0 any of us in games like Quake III, DoD, CS, etc.  Skill is there, and very admirable, but the skill is much more one dimensional than in fighting games if you compare everything you need for both types of games. 

MMO's can't even compare to FPS's or Fighters, though.  I mean there is skill, but it's all brief CC coordination and the simplest forms of it at that.

[Kumo]

What system do you own SF4 for?

[Syphien]

I own SF4 for the PS3.

[magnesium]

if you're not playing mind games in an FPS, you're not playing it right.

[MetalMusicMan]

if you're not playing mind games in an FPS, you're not playing it right.

There are mind games-- strafe left, strafe right.  Jump.    It's pretty shallow.

Unless you are playing a game with immense bunny hopping skills, like Quake 3 or Elite Force or one of the other classics, there isn't much in the way of mind games.